Fashionable Fur
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The fur debate is one in which people are often profoundly divided in relation of opinion. Is it ethical to wear fur? To slaughter animals in order to produce a celestial warm coat for winter?
Our earliest evidence of our ancestors creating clothes come from the Neanderthals (homo neanderthalensis) as a way of surviving the harsh climate. They ‘died out’ (I use this term loosely as there is debate as to whether or not they interbred with homo sapiens) around 30,000 years ago during the last glacial period (the last cold period; known as the Devensian). Archaeologists have discovered chipped rock scrapers which is believed to be related to the exploitation of animals for survival.
We are not anatomically adapted to the consumption of meat. A carnivore such as a Tiger has sharp claws whereas we and herbivores do not, the carnivore also has sharp front teeth for tearing and no flat molar teeth for grinding. We do not have these, accordingly we must use a proxy (an instrument used for a purpose that our bodies cannot undertake) to cut up the flesh and eat it. You may argue that it is possible to eat a steak with your bare hands, in which case well done, albeit I must also mention that if the human body was designed to consume animals then we would be able to eat our meat raw, I’d like to see you try. (Please don’t).
Why does this seem relevant? The fact is that due to the nature in which we have evolved, we have had to use resources from other creatures to survive the climate due to our Technical Intelligence, (the ‘Five Intelligences’ were devised by Steven Mithan). Fur clothing was created in order to live. We only began to eat animals because there was nothing else. Originally, millions of years ago once predators had eaten their share of the carcass and left it to rot, this was when our ancestors moved in and tore off bits for themselves. As a result, it is more logical to wear a fur coat for warmth – something vital to our survival than to eat it to sustain a healthy diet; our bodies can survive without and arguably better without it, but take away the synthetic man-made materials used in clothing today, and animal fur is all we have against the warmth.
It takes about 30-40 Mink to create a Mink coat. This may sound like a lot for the consumption of one person, however if you consider the English tradition of a roast dinner every Sunday you will have roast Chicken (or other meat) if you normally do, or more if there are a lot of people to be fed. Consequently, on average you will consume about 50 Chickens a year through your Sunday lunch alone. Thus, one could subsequently argue that it is the consumption of animals for meat which is more damaging than the fashion industry to the little critters. Animals bred for supermarket stores are often kept in vile conditions, and you don’t want to know how they get the milk from all those cows.
I am in no way applauding the appalling conditions which animals have been reported to be subjected to, (the EU has banned trade in cat and dog fur across Europe). But what I am claiming is that you cannot condone the use of fur or any part of the animal for clothing – be it a bag, shoes, coat etc if you eat meat. The treatment of the animals is largely unethical (or completely, I honestly do not know), however this is not the nature of the argument.
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I was vegetarian for about two years, i eat meat now. However i do freely admit the points above when it is relevant in conversation! (I am not suggesting people wear Chicken coats or anything)
very nice hub
thank you :-)
Food for thought! Difficult to resist fur, though.
Interesting argument... Personally I cannot resist wearing real fur, although most of the time I set for synthetic.
I personally don't have any fur, but that's mainly because i tend to loose gloves and items of that nature!
LOL We are predators. Denying this does not bring any benefit :)
Not naturally, it is only because of the development of our intelligence that we have been able to exploit animals and incorporate them into our diet. I'm not anti-meat / fur, i eat meat, i'm just making a point.
Misha, I don't like to think myself as a predator but if someone else does the "dirty work" for me I don't mind eating a roast or wearing a fur coat ;-)
Not so keen on the fur, but I never judge others for eating meat. That is very much a personal choice - most people respect my vegetarianism, so I give the same respect to them. :)
At least if we eat the meat of say a cow, the skin can be used as well for leather etc, but with a mink, only the coat is used, and the flesh discarded. Frequently these creatures are in mesh bottomed cages stacked on top of each otherthroughout their short lives. During this time all the urine and faeces from the higher cages trickles through to the residents on the lower level. Horrible.
Not sure about the "50 chickens per year Sunday dinners" calculation either. Here in the UK we may have a roast dinner on a Sunday, but not always chicken, in fact probably only one in every five roasts may be chicken, other Sundays it might be beef, lamb, pork etc. With only 52 Sundays in a year it seems unlikely we are eating 50 chickens per year. Naturally a cow, pig or sheep produces far more meat than a chicken, and therefore for each one slaughtered many mouths will get fed.
When my Grandmother on my Father's side died, she left my Mum several mink stoles etc. Mum refused point blank to wear them, and in the end gave them away.
I reckon the Native American Indians had the right idea, they ate the meat and used all parts of the carcasses of the buffalo to avoid waste (including the skin). They also 'thanked' the buffalo's spirit for it's contribution.
Here in Guernsey we are world famous for our dairy cows and the high quality of our milk. I can't speak for other countries, but our cows graze in open fields and are not injected or forced into high milk yields. Actually, all in all they have a fantastic quality of life.
Thought provoking Hub though.
My Grandfather was an 'old school' farmer. Whilst there was no chance that he would become veggie, he believed that if you raise an animal for food, you have a duty to make sure that it has a 'natural' life before slaughter. He hated intensive farming more than anybody.
I totally agree Sufidreamer, plus the meat from a contented animal will taste better anyway.
Although i see your point, the nature of the argument was not the conditions which the animals are kept in, everyone knows that they are abysmal, but it is the point that it is hypocrytical to condone the use of fur when people have leather sofas, suede shoes etc.
If you had read what i had written thoroughly, you would have noticed that after Chicken i did write in brackets 'or other meat', stating that i did not think that everyone eats Chicken religiously every Sunday, it was the first meat which came into my head.
Therefore, what i am trying to say has no relevance to the treatment of animals, because that topic needs no further explanation than the fact that it should be ethical and as we would treat one another.
Thank you :-)
I agrre with yu Misty. I eat meat and I also wish they would do as the American Indians did with the Buffalo--uese all parts. I think they even use the teeth for something. I don't have any furs and really prefer not too.
I agree too, and it is a shame that we have lost this ancient knowledge due to the way that we live today.
To answer your point, I agree that it is hypocritical to condemn fur if you eat meat. :)
Hi ejb, No, I did read your hub thoroughly I promise, but you made this comment:
" Consequently, on average you will consume about 50 Chickens a year through your Sunday lunch alone".
This would not be accurate if we were, as you also stated, including " or other meat".
It came across as if the same would apply if we were eating lamb, pork, beef etc, but of course if we had roast lamb every Sunday we wouldn't get through 50 sheep a year each because there is so much more meat on a sheep.
One point that I would like to raise, (and this may be open to debate I am sure), but we do have something Herbivores don't have, and that is Canine teeth. To be fair I think this would at least categorize us as evolved to be "omnivores", i.e. We were meant to eat both meat and vegetables.
Another opinion I personally have, is that it isn't hyprocritical to condemn fur if you eat meat, for the same reasons as I stated in my first post. To kill the animal purely for it's coat and throw away the meat is unethical, but to kill the animal for it's meat and then ensure none of the carcass (including the fur) is wasted, ensures that the animal did not die in vain and respects what it has provided us with in return.
Like they used to say on the Anti-Fur T'Shirts, "Fur coats are on beautiful animals and ugly people".
LOL I'll catch one for you Wendy, I promise :)
Cindy, you have a point I think. But why don't we eat mink? Do they taste terribly?
Ejb, we are predators naturally :) We are not carnivores, that is a fact, but we are omnivores like pigs or bears, as Cindy pointed out, and meat is a part of our natural diet.
Sufi, I tried to go vegetarian at some point in my life, and even managed for a couple of months, but I like a good stake or a piece of raw fish too much to give them up :)
LOL Misha, never tried eating a mink, but guess not many other people have either or it would be in our local butchers :)
We are most definitely predators simply proven by the fact that our eyes are situated on the front of our skulls, and not on the sides (a sure sign of a predator versus prey).
I too tried to go vegetarian some years ago, but only lasted 3 months, mainly because I got sick of eating cheese and salad, plus being already too thin, and not liking those Quorn, Soya etc type meat substitutes. If I hadn't gone back to meat I doubt I would be here typing this now!!
I agree that it's a bit hypocritical to condemn fur if you eat meat, and I think it's equally hypocritical to condemn meat eaters while wearing patent leather shoes, or belts, or attaches... :-)
Elena - Good point. I do not use leather for that exact reason.
Misty/Misha - It is not for everyone. I do not miss meat, but I still get the odd craving for a bit of fish now and then! That can be tough.
If we were designed to eat meat then why haven't we physically evolved to capture the meat ourselves? Mistyhorizon, it is grammatically correct to when you write something such as 'or other meat' in brackets, when the time next comes up for its reference (as the one you pointed out) you assume that your reader will make the connection.
Our teeth have indeed evolved to the grinding down of meat, however this was more of an adaptation to human behaviour, not the evolution of our bodies. A carnivore has very strong hydrochloric acid acid in the stomach to digest meat, however humans and herbivores have acid which is 20 times weaker. There are several other differences.
Meat really isn't part of our natural diet Misha, type into Google 'are humans meant to eat meat' and see what comes up.
Could go both ways on that one - the current belief seems to be that humans evolved to eat a similar diet to chimps. Largely vegetarian, but with an occasional protein supplement from meat. Another theory is that humanity evolved to eat seafood, supported by the idea that our physiology seems to support a semi-aquatic existence.
It is certainly an interesting field.
We are something like 99% identical to Chimps, having descended from two species of them.
Good thing we don't exclusively eat seafood because i can't stand any of it!
Come on Ejb,
You seemed to be a rational person. :) Cindy supplied you with the proof that we are meant to be predators - the position of our eyes. Please show us at least one case of our ancestors having eyes on the sides of the head, and I'll gladly agree to you :D
As for the carnivores - nobody said we are them. We are omnivores. We used to have an extensive discussion on forums here about the matter, I'll try to find it for you.
Sufi,
You are playing nasty games with your body. It asks you for certain nutrition it needs, and you deny it. Don't be surprised when it fires back in a form of some kind of illness.
Here is the link :) http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/2300
Never had a problem, Misha. I have not been to the doctors for many years, and never take tablets.
I know a lot about physiology and nutrition, so I make sure that I have a well balanced diet!
It is possible to create a balanced diet without any meat. I'm not denying the fact that we are not predators, albeit it is through the use of 'proxies' which has meant that we have been able to do so.
You will Sufi, if you continue this route.
Oh, those things are not immediate, and this is why they are so hard to trace. Body is always trying to compensate. If you don't give it certain nutrition, it often finds other ways to cover the need. The problem is - those ways are often self-cannibalizing.
Nature assumes that we just don't have access to a certain food temporarily, and will re-plenish the stock when this food is available - hence it tries to get necessary chemicals from less important parts of the body. But we with our scientifically based diets never come back to re-plenishing - and what seemed to be a temporary condition becomes a permanent one, and crosses a threshold at some point triggering an illness...
Just keep this in mind when you come to re-thinking your approach next time. Nobody knows what your diet at that particular moment should be better than your own body. You need to learn to listen to it. :)
Jainism states that vegetarianism is mandatory for all that follow the faith. It developed 2,500 years ago as a reaction to orthodox Brahmanism, so if a vegetarian diet catches up with you in the end it must take an awful long time, because people are still living in accordance to this religion and not eating meat.
LOL Let me get myself clear - I am not talking about being a vegetarian here.
I am talking about listening to your body signals, be it about eating fish or grass, or anything completely different :)
And what are these body signals then?
In terms of food - cravings. It is most pronounced in pregnant women, but everybody can identify them, if they try :)
Right so your point is that if you don't eat meat you crave for it?
Not necessarily. Rather the point is - if you crave for meat, you should eat it. The same refers to bread, ice-cream, chocolate or any other food or drink :)
And if you crave amphetamines?
what is amphetamines?
Understood, Misha - I probably could have worded that much better. It is not a 'physical' craving, but more that I gave up something that I enjoyed. I was brought up near the coast, so fish was a daily part of the diet!
I do listen to my body a lot - in the hot climate here, if you do not listen to your body, you could be in serious trouble.
The technical name for speed, a drug often taken with similar effects to cocaine. There are several strands such as amphetamine sulphate, dexamphetamine and dexidrine.
BTW - Eyes on the front of the head does not necessarily signify predation. If our ancestors were tree-dwellers, being able to judge distance as they jump from tree to tree is an essential adaptation.
LOL Then I am preaching to the choir Sufi. Glad we are on the same page :)
As for the eyes - are you going to argue we are not omnivores? Eyes are not the only sign. Teeth, colon design, all tells we are not exactly herbivores :)
Ejb, that's a good question :) I would say - go for it. But listen to your body. When it says enough, it is enough.
I don't take drugs myself, but whatever floats your boat. The eyes has got to do with strabismus or something wack like that.
I don't take them either - for an apparent reason that my body does not crave for them :)
Nope - I suspect that we are omnivores. Chimps exist happily on a vegetarian diet, but are also opportunist meat eaters. The forward facing eyes and good colour vision, however, are more likely to be related to a tree-dwelling ancestor. This is far from certain, though.
Until we uncover a little more about our ancestors, then nobody knows for sure. A vegetarian diet is healthy, and so is an omnivorous diet. Most of the people I know who eat too much meat have serious health problems, so we are not meant to be purely carnivorous.
Sadly, I have one friend who eats only meat, potatoes and bread - he is not a well man!
I think I am very adepted to be a predator, There is no animal in all of nature than can escape me and my wit. I chose only to chase the ones that taste best to me. Mostly Fish, Squirrels, Rabbits, deer, and occasionally reptiles.
TMG
Sounds like a good life - You should have few problems with the economic crisis! Luckily for me, vegetables are much easier to catch.
LOL Sufi, nobody pretends to be a pure carnivore I guess. But we can adapt to this, too - as well as to become pure herbivores. There are many examples on vegetarian side, much less on the meat eating side. But someone mentioned Eskimos recently - yes, they became carnivores essentially.
TMG, how about some insects? ;)
The eskimos are interesting - they appear to have adapted to a certain diet. Even they do eat some green stuff, but admittedly a lot less.
I like some of them, Especially the big fat juicy ground wasps in Oklahoma. You roast em and they are delicious. I was in southeast asia once and they eat a cricket there that is pretty good too. All in all bugs are too much work for me.
TMG
I have a question if that's ok. I don't know any people (by that I mean here in my town) that don't eat meat. I went to the dr yesterday and found out I need to eat red meat. I am anemic due to the fact of being on high dosages of Coumadin. So, I just wondered if a person who doesn't eat meat has a doctor tell them they need to eat red meat, what do they do?
(Sufi- I posted to you on the Stump the Fundamental Christian hub. See, I tracked you down LOL)
That's due to a lack of iron isn't it? Alternatives rich in it are - spinach, raisins, grapes, broccoli, lentils, and i'm sure there are lots more.
I get most of my iron from lentils, and eggs are good, too. It is possible to get more than enough iron without meat, but you need to put a little more work in.
Luckily, we both love cooking, so that is never a problem.
ASU, a lot of well water in USA is high on iron. Not sure about your area - but that could be an option, too :)
ejb, to quote your post and therefore make it easier to refer back to:
"If we were designed to eat meat then why haven't we physically evolved to capture the meat ourselves? Mistyhorizon, it is grammatically correct to when you write something such as 'or other meat' in brackets, when the time next comes up for its reference (as the one you pointed out) you assume that your reader will make the connection.
Our teeth have indeed evolved to the grinding down of meat, however this was more of an adaptation to human behaviour, not the evolution of our bodies. A carnivore has very strong hydrochloric acid acid in the stomach to digest meat, however humans and herbivores have acid which is 20 times weaker. There are several other differences."
Firstly, we have learnt to capture meat without needing to physically evolve. Our intelliegence allowed us to develop tools and weapons so that that we could hunt and capture our food. The need for the body to physically evolve therefore became redundant, and the body will only evolve if nature tells it there is a need to in order to survive.
You quote again the comment you firstly made in brackets "(or other meat)", but this still does not make it very clear that one sheep, pig or cow could probably feed one person for many many months, whereas one chicken would not, hence the 50 chickens per year comment was not a fair example of, to quote your words:
"Thus, one could subsequently argue that it is the consumption of animals for meat which is more damaging than the fashion industry to the little critters."
How can you compare killing one cow to feed a person for no doubt the best part of a year, (plus being able to use virtually all of it's body parts for other purposes, including warmth), to killing maybe 40 mink to make one coat, and then throw away their meat, especially when there are animals we eat that can also provide us with warm clothing out of their remains without the need to kill an animal solely to make a coat!
The Canine teeth we have do not "grind down meat" as Canines are for the "Tearing" of meat. The acid in our stomachs now may be 20 times weaker than most Carnivores because we have evolved not to need such strong acid because most of the meat we eat now is cooked, and has been for many centuries.
This is an interesting subject, and gut instincts tell me we are much like the chimps, who will hunt other monkeys and eat them in addition to their vegetarian diet. We are omniverous, not herbivorous, and our brains tend to function far better once 'fed' the protein meat contains.
I can't eat things that contain Vitamin K (green things, leafy things etc) because that makes my Coumadin not work and my bloot clot would grow again. I drink water 99% of the time. Every once in a while I drink a glass of sweet tea. Also, when I was pregnant, something happened that caused me to get sick at my stomach every time I smell eggs cooking and that never went away :(
I will have to look that up ASU. Off the top of my head, red lentils should be OK, but I will try to find a few more things so that you can mix up your diet a little.
Ty. The only thing he said was to get more red meat and we have a couple deer in the freezer. I just haven't felt up to cooking much lately. And I do wonder different things I could eat to vary my diet that is still healthy.
I will have a look and dig out some recipes for you, although you may have to check out with your doctor what is safe, as I know little about your condition!
Hi Sufi, Just out of interest, your comment "BTW - Eyes on the front of the head does not necessarily signify predation. If our ancestors were tree-dwellers, being able to judge distance as they jump from tree to tree is an essential adaptation".
Is there any evidence of our ancestors being 'Tree Dwellers' though?
Yes, my archaeology teacher is well known for his work and is a very intelligent man. I shall find the evidence for you tomorrow.
Liver is good for iron ASU. Personally I hate the stuff, but if you like it try that. Also Guiness (the drink), has loads of Iron in it.
Sufi, I wrote a little about it in my hub about Vitamin K if you'd like to check that out. You are right about me having to check with my dr about things. But they are very opened minded about me because they don't feel they can be of much help to me. And they'l like for me to get better. Ty.
Misty, thanks. Liver is something I can't much stomach. UGH!! Around this part of the woods, it's mostly used for fish bait. I have never tried Guiness. I'll have to check that out. Ty.
Will check back in tomorrow then ejb. Would like to see what he says on the whole subject actually :)
ASU - I will have a look at your Hubs. Guinness is good, if you can find an Irish bar!
Misty - Hopefully ejb has something.
Not trying to say that humans definitely have forward looking eyes because they were tree-dwellers, more that forward facing eyes are not exclusive to predators.
Sufi, I live in a dry county. And I have no idea where a pub is lol.
Ejb- A very humane hub. I have eaten meat 4 times in my life and that too for the heck of it but those times have produced a lot of guilty conscience therefore now I am back to being a vegetarian. There are other animals like snakes which are used for purse or belts that also makes me sad.
The tribe of the Kombai live in tree houses.
Countrywomen, i know what you mean. Although i wear leather myself in the form of shoes or whatever i personally don't agree with using animal skin purely for fashion purposes.
A lot of what I would say on this topic has already been covered, but Jane Goodall's work pretty well handled most of the issues being raised here a long time ago.
The "canine" teeth we have most likely evolved for tearing apart fibrous plants, and there is little or no evidence that they were ever the evolutionary equivalent of a knife as is seen in true carnivors like wolves, tigers and T-rex. (This is not necessarly per Goodall, as this was established long before that.)
However, Goodall proved that our near ancestor the chimp (actually our second nearest, as I believe Bonobo's are even closer to us) is a hunting creature, and there are some fantastic videos available showing group hunting excercises (and some warlike behavior too, very interesting stuff if you care) that clearly show the collective hunt behavior manifest in our hairy cousins, and not just the "opportunistic" meat eating that includes snatching up the occasional unlucky bird.
Furthermore, and outside of hunting and tool use for procuring meat (who hasn't seen the monkeys using sticks to fish termites out of mounts to eat?), there is considerable evidence to suggest our meat eating was actually more scavenger based to begin (which was touched upon briefly above), and I have read a considerable body of work suggesting that the human intellect made leaps forward upon the introduction of the proteins gotten primarily from bone marrow (often left behind on a carcass by true preditors), and some meaty portions of carrion. The discovery of "cooking" allowed for more utilization of meaty parts for obvious reasons, which ultimately lead to the realization that hunting would provide considerable sustinence for larger groups of humans. The recognition of hunting as a way of providing large volumes of food (and clothing and other materials for tools etc.) allowed for the formation of larger social units, which has a very long line of outcomes which most everyone understands very well.
That's just my two cents, the hub sparked a nice conversation, so, you get credit for doing that. Thanks.
ASU, I found a site for you for Iron and what foods are rich in it: http://www.foodshighiniron.com/ I hope this helps. Also try Ferrous Gluconate and not sulfate.
Sorry to hijack but wanted to give her some info.
Not a problem :-)
Very interesting stuff Shades, and Jane Goodall is a great heroine of mine. I have seen a group of chimps hunting on a fascinating documentary, and it was totally well organised by the group, with each chimp having it's own role to play in the hunt and capture of the smaller species of monkey, which they then tore apart and shared out amongst the group. quite disturbing to watch, but equally it was riveting too. LOL, at least they actually ate the monkey and didn't simply throw away the caracass having first skinned it and made it into a small coat :)
I am not convinced by the tree dweller theory on why humans have eyes in the front of their heads though ejb and Sufi, as the Kombai tribe is only one example of one tribe that have chosen to live in trees, and therefore a very small, if not minute, section of the human race around the globe.
I like Jane Goodall too.
It is certainly open to debate - the reason that I tend towards it is because humans also have excellent colour vision. This is much more common in fruit eaters than predators. Of course, this is still speculation and we may never know until someone unearths the missing link.
I remember a documentary a few years back (Horizon?), which proposed the theory that humans evolved as shore dwellers. Interesting concept, which opens up the possibility that we are fish eaters. Never followed it up, so I am not sure what happened to that idea!
Iccck, I hate fish Sufi, but see where you are coming from. One thought though, is that if we were possibly 'fish eaters', how come we are not evolved to swim brilliantly, and most of us would struggle to catch any fish without a large net, or a rod and line, as opposed to simply using our physical body.
Also, if we are related to Chimpanzees, how come they cannot swim at all and will drown if dropped in water out of their depth??
The 'Missing Link' would certainly fill in a lot of the blanks.
It was a long time ago, but the main points were that:
We can float, unlike chimps, as you pointed out.
We are largely hairless, which is an advantage, when swimming. It is not much of an evolutionary advantage on land.
Seafood appears to be particularly suited to our diet.
The theory proposed that proto-humans were hunter gatherers inhabiting the shoreline, eating limpets etc. Not sure what happened to the idea, but it was an interesting concept.
A hubber - Wabond, has excellent hubs on such things.
We really need that missing link to be sure, but I guess we do have webbed fingers which could explain something of the theory being possible.
The term omnivore was mentioned 5 times in the comments but never in the hub. Though I liked the hub well enough I feel that some perspective needs to be demonstrated on this topic, as all topics. I suppose I should write a hub to do that instead of doing it here though :)
Scott
Umm, this fish line is interesting... Cindy, did you ever try raw fish? It does not smell that bad, you know, and tastes really different from cooked one :)
Well Misha, I eat smoked salmon, and that is raw, but I have not tried any other raw fish :) I do eat a small amount of cooked fish, but only Smoked Haddock, Smoked Mackerel and Tuna.
Well, smoked is not exactly raw. It is delicious, no question - but this is a different taste. :)
I actually did not try raw fish till my late 30s, but since then I am addict :)
As for the cooked fish, I used to have vietnamese neighbors once. And every once in a while they fried pickled herring. This is probably the worst smell I ever experienced in my life :)
And interesting revelation just crossed my mind - isn't this shore dwellers theory explaining my persistent craving to live on the shore?
I believe misty made the comment that if we evolved as shore dwellers then why don't we have a better means to fish.
Interesting point I never thought much of it, but my tribe of Native Americans uses a method of fishing known as Noodling in American English.
It is the best way to catch big fish that provide a lot of meat for the family, you don't need a net, a rod or any other instrument, although a straight stick makes size identification an easier task.
Just your fingers and a lot of strength. I grew up fishing this way and never gave thought to it until this hub and comments. Anyway, we as humans are perfectly adapted to this type of fishing and makes complete since from a shore dweller perspetive.
Maybe some smart person oughta do their doctors thesis on it.
TMG
TMG - We used to do a similar thing called 'Trout Tickling'.
I am looking forward to seeing Misha live in a small hut by the sea, eating raw fish. Don't know how the love of cars fits in, but maybe a speedboat - no speed limits or cops in International Waters.
Kidding or not Sufi, but this is pretty close to my current definition of Paradise - providing this is some kind of tropical beach, warm enough for no clothes year round :)
And nobody really forces me to throw a few other things like olives and wine into the mix, and to add a parking lot with driveway at the back of the hut :P
I would not need any fur then, just to make a contribution to the topic of the hub :)
We have the olives, grapes and driveway here, so almost there.
Sadly, we live a considerable distance from the sea, and it is bloody cold in winter :(
Oh yeah, I know Mediterranean is great. I have not been to Greece yet, but I traveled to Italy, Israel, Turkey, Egypt, Cyprus - all are just pure fun :) And the food - ah, memories :)
You have been to some wonderful places - I hope to explore more in the future.
In a feeble attempt to return to the topic, there are many fur shops in Greece.
I've noticed an interesting trend that happens at every anti-fur or vegetarian gathering i've ever seen... It makes me wonder now, how many people here against wearing furs or eating meat have leather shoes or handbags/briefcases?
You make a fantastic point :-) Which was really the drive at what i was saying
I can take the moral high ground on this one. Good point, though, and too often true.
I have a chuckle when people class themselves as semi-vegetarian because they only eat chicken and fish. Nothing against that, but you are either a veggie or you are not.
Ha there was someone i know who tried to justify being anti meat always saying eurgh dead corpse if you had meat on your plate... And tried to justify eating fish. Spanner. Netherless, she eventually stopped eating fish too...
Ha there was someone i know who tried to justify being anti meat always saying eurgh dead corpse if you had meat on your plate... And tried to justify eating fish. Spanner. Netherless, she eventually stopped eating fish too...
I hate that, too. Most vegetarians detest these people too. Most of the abuse I have received over the years is a reaction to militant veggies. Going around and insulting people is not going to turn them veggie. At school, quite a few of us made the switch, but you notice that the ones who shouted loudest lasted the least time.
To eat meat or not - an entirely personal choice.
I am enjoying the moral high ground - at least until a vegan turns up. In that case, I will be screwed.
You are safe - vegans don't have enough energy to type :D
ROFL - Misha, you kill me.
Sufidreamer Level 1 Commenter 3 years ago
Interesting and very well written Hub, ejb. - a picture of the beautiful and talented Shirley Manson helps too! You know that she means it rather than jumping upon the media bandwagon.
You are right about the hypocrisy surrounding fur - killing a Mink really is no different than killing a chicken. I remember an argument I had a few years ago, with a man who was passionately anti-vivisection. No problem with that, but then he started ranting about bombing people. It turned out that he ate meat, so his argument lost a little credibility in my eyes!
Things are certainly a little easier nowadays - when I first turned veggie, I received so many stupid comments. People are a little more forgiving now, and respect my decision, as I try to respect theirs.